Churchill powers Quebec profits

Rob Antle
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Hydro-Quebec earnings would drop 75 per cent without Labrador energy, study finds; Montreal Economic Institute attributes $2-billion-plus annual impact to project

Hydro-Quebec would see recent annual profits slashed by 75 per cent - more than $2 billion - if it had to go without cheap electricity obtained from Churchill Falls.

That's according to a research paper published this week by the Montreal Economic Institute, a Quebec-based think-tank.

According to the study, Hydro-Quebec currently obtains 31.8 terawatt hours (TWh) of electricity from Churchill Falls.

Study author Claude Garcia calculated the impact of Churchill Falls power on Hydro-Quebec operations in 2007, assuming the controversial Labrador power deal had ended on Dec. 31, 2006.

Bare rock shows the size and scope of what Churchill Falls looked like before the hydro-electric dam and facility was built. - Transcontinental Media file photo

Hydro-Quebec would see recent annual profits slashed by 75 per cent - more than $2 billion - if it had to go without cheap electricity obtained from Churchill Falls.

That's according to a research paper published this week by the Montreal Economic Institute, a Quebec-based think-tank.

According to the study, Hydro-Quebec currently obtains 31.8 terawatt hours (TWh) of electricity from Churchill Falls.

Study author Claude Garcia calculated the impact of Churchill Falls power on Hydro-Quebec operations in 2007, assuming the controversial Labrador power deal had ended on Dec. 31, 2006.

"Profit of $2.882 billion in 2007 would have been reduced to $709 million," Garcia concluded in the report.

The sharp drop results from the end of lucrative export sales and the cost of importing replacement electricity.

"Hydro-Quebec would have had to find supplies on the market to replace the missing electricity," the study noted.

"It would have been possible to recover 17.5 TWh by reducing exports to zero, meaning the loss of export sales."

Assuming it had no access to Labrador power, Hydro Quebec would have lost nearly $1.5 billion from a resulting lack of export sales alone, the study found.

The additional expense to import power would have cost Hydro Quebec another $773 million.

"If an end to the Churchill Falls agreement in 2007 were to be simulated, it could be concluded that the return on Hydro-Quebec's activities on Quebec territory in 2007 would have been 3.6 per cent, which is below the 5.4 per cent cost of Hydro-Quebec's borrowings in 2007," the study reported.

Labrador power has a significant impact on the Quebec utility's operations, Garcia claimed.

"If Hydro-Quebec has a return on equity of 14.5 per cent today, it owes this essentially to the Churchill Falls agreement, to its exceptional hydroelectric resources and to the fact that it is not taxed on its net profit."

The Churchill agreement renews in 2016, and will ultimately expire in 2041.

The research paper argues in favour of the privatization of Hydro Quebec, citing inefficient operations and high cost structures, among other factors.

The author is a member of the board of directors of several corporations and former president of the Canadian operations of Standard Life. Garcia has also completed doctoral studies at the London School of Economics. He could not be reached for comment before deadline Thursday.

The original Churchill Falls deal, signed in the late 1960s, has been a sore point for Newfoundland and Labrador for decades.

The provincial government has claimed that Quebec reaped 95 per cent of net revenues from Churchill Falls - $19 billion of a total $20 billion - up to the end of 2006.

rantle@thetelegram.com

Organizations: Hydro-Quebec, Montreal Economic Institute, Standard Life London School of Economics

Geographic location: Quebec, Newfoundland and Labrador

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Recent comments

  • John W.
    July 02, 2010 - 13:35

    Lloyd from Labrador. Thanks for giving me the opportunity in replying.

    For heavens sake get a new tune. I've seen you more or less a 100 times on this forum and you have the same gripe over and over, again and again. But then again, we are all blessed with this freedom of speech.

    Why dont you and Wally go for coffee and discuss the ramifications of which you speak about so adamantly here.

  • Bones
    July 02, 2010 - 13:34

    Imagine what NL would look like with money like that flowing decade after decade.

  • Mike
    July 02, 2010 - 13:34

    Can we talk about the Sprung greenhouse housing development instead? That was more fun.

  • Lloyd
    July 02, 2010 - 13:34

    Sir, you must thank the good folk at the Telegram for that privilege, not I.
    My only desire would be that you familiarize yourself with geographical and political realities.

    Clear of that....a hundred times? You counted? Likely, if you keep your eyes open, you might see it another hundred times yet. Isn't that what this focus of THIS story is?
    How about it, Wally, coffee?

  • W
    July 02, 2010 - 13:34

    My secret agenda unveiled: to beat it out of nationalist Newfoundlanders' heads that the province is NOT an island.

    Oops, now I've gone and said too much.

  • John W.
    July 02, 2010 - 13:33

    Watcher.. I dont think so. Unless of course, it was so written into the contract as first beginning. Wish the answer was a positive one for us in Newfoundland and Labrador.

  • Newfoundlander
    July 02, 2010 - 13:33

    To W Mclean from ONTARIO .If you would re-read my comment you will note that I did not say CHURCHILL FALLS is on an Island inthe Atlantic I said that there is equality for all unless you live on an island in the Atlantic.It is great to see someone from Ontario commenting as your province is now a have not Province i would suggest you follow this story closely . there are many industries in ONTARIO whom may find that they are not being treated fairly by one or another federal Government. you also may have reason to try & fix a
    wrong someday.

  • Lloyd
    July 02, 2010 - 13:31

    Pretty clear that Joey was caught up in and was clearly outmanoevred in the deal between Brinco and Quebec Hydro. Complain all you want and explain all you want but he could have, at some point, said NO.
    I see all the regular complaints about how Newfoundland has been hard done by in this thing. OK, agreed. However, it is Labrador who has lost the most and continues to lose. No town currently receives ENOUGH power from this huge development. It is only Labrador who has lost the river and who has had it's lands flooded, essentially for nothing.
    It is ONLY Labrador who will have this same injustice pertrated upon it by the same people who complain about the injustices of the first bad deal.
    Yep, you're going to do the same thing to Labrador with the so called Lower Churchill as is so heavily condemned regarding Quebec Hydro vs Nfld.
    Justice for ALL?

  • Newfoundlander
    July 02, 2010 - 13:31

    OH CANADA what a great nation equality for all . unless you are on an island in the Atlantic Ocean. If SASKACHEWAN owned Churchill Falls & were going to transport the power east to Nova Scotia would the same unfairly balanced contract be allowed to stand for the same period of time.I doubt it.

  • John
    July 02, 2010 - 13:30

    There are two big lies of Newfoundland history. The first is that the British took over Newfoundland in the 1930's to help us and not themselves. The second laughable lie is that Joey did not know what he was doing when he signed the Churchill agreement. What a shame that we teach our kids such lies in school. But then, these lies sound better than the dirty truth.

  • W
    July 02, 2010 - 13:30

    Debbie, Labrador isn't part of the island. And you don't exactly see Labrador awash with offshore oil money these days. Funny how ''it's Newfoundlanda and Labrador'' works in one direction.

  • John W.
    July 02, 2010 - 13:25

    Jones.. And while you are at it, why dont you also add.. AND PIGS WILL FLY.

  • funny enough
    July 02, 2010 - 13:25

    living in quebec these past years I've come to know some of the ironies of this province...too numerous to mention in this forum.
    Many Newfoundlanders and Labradorians would be shocked to know that many Quebecers think Labrador is rightly theirs; and the more ignorant among them think it is.

  • TelegramReader
    July 02, 2010 - 13:24

    Reading stuff like this really makes me ill. I wonder what the profits would have totaled for NL over the years...makes you wonder. Get the Lower Churchill Project up and running!!!

  • Lloyd
    July 02, 2010 - 13:24

    Debbie from Mount Pearl, NL writes: Now Lloyd, no need to turn on your fellow NL'ers.

    Debbie, I am not turning on anyone. I am saying, or trying to say that when you start to criticize someone, or something, for doing such and such to you - you need, you really need, to examine how you might be doing the same to someone, or something else. A little self examination is good for you.

    Time for us to say ENOUGH

    Please learn some of your how history (real history, not recent rhetoric) and apply.
    That's my challenge to you, and others.
    I do not live on an island.

  • NL_Expatriate
    July 02, 2010 - 13:24

    Hope springs eternal in a democracy.

    Unfortunately for Newfoundland and Labrador with only 1.5% of the population, it is eternally hopeless!

    EQUALITY OR EXIT!

  • John W.
    July 02, 2010 - 13:24

    does anyone else disagree with me other than McClean.

    Labrador is not an island. Newfoundland is an island. Labrador is part of Newfoundland as a province. So, Labrador the non island part is part of the island of Newfoundland.

    Obviously Mr. McClean that is beyond your comprehension. Even the kindergarten children know that GEOGRAPHICALLY, Labrador isnt attached to the Island of Newfoundland. What I mean by being part of Newfoundland, is that Labrador and Newfoundland are one province.

  • Max
    July 02, 2010 - 13:23

    There is a way to end this charade early - the renewal clause was added under duress. The link from the Harris Policy Centre that I added earlier is a detailed account of how it happened. And how we can overturn this crap deal early in 2016.

    You people post and argue back and forth and most of you don't een take the time to become educated on the subject - read something relevant!!!!!

    Its this divisive chatter that prevents any real progress.

  • W
    July 02, 2010 - 13:23

    Newfoundland from NL - what island in the Atlantic is Churchill Falls on?

  • W
    July 02, 2010 - 13:23

    To W Mclean from ONTARIO .If you would re-read my comment you will note that I did not say CHURCHILL FALLS is on an Island inthe Atlantic I said that there is equality for all unless you live on an island in the Atlantic.


    Yes. In connection with something called Churchill Falls. Is there also a Churchill Falls on some island in the Atlantic? If so, which island?

  • Jon
    July 02, 2010 - 13:22

    This story makes me even more angry everytime I hear it. What the hell was Joey thinking when he made this deal!?

  • inteested
    July 02, 2010 - 13:21

    Well said John, sums it up.

  • Sheldon
    July 02, 2010 - 13:21

    John W: To you, it will always be the province of newfoundland. Obviously you live on the island, if you lived in labrador you'd be singing a different tune. I don't think labrador wanted to be recognized as being part of the island of newfoundland when the name change occurred, rather for people to recognize that labrador is part of the entire province of newfoundland and labrador. i.e. Goose bay, labrador, or Goose bay, newfoundland and labrador, not Goose bay, newfoundland. I don't think people on the island generally understand or realize the contempt that labradorians have for newfoundland. I'm sure they would just like to be recognized accordingly. Labradorians have their own culture, own flag ( since 1973) and own way of life. I bet most newfoundlanders don't even know what the labrador flag looks like. While I don't agree with people using every occasion they can to complain about how labrador is hard done by, they do have legitimate gripes considering the number of dirt roads, communities still on diesel power, limited cell service, the list goes on, especially given the resources that abound in this area. While I would not want to see labrador become its own territory, they could certainly do so, even with a population of 27,000. Yukon only has 30,000 and the NWT 40,000. I think newfoundland is lucky to have labrador.

    And by the way, I'm not from labrador, I just live here. I'm a proud newfoundlander, born and raised. But I am also proud to say I live in labrador.

  • Richard
    July 02, 2010 - 13:20

    Debbie - please list the resources (plural) of our province which have been raped by Ottawa .

    With the exception of fish (which swim, by the way) NL has complete and absolute jurisdiction over its natural resources. Go read the Constitution.

  • Tim
    July 02, 2010 - 13:19

    People really think that at the rate we are going that anyone will be around in 2041? Now thats the best laff I have had all year!

    If Danny Williams wants to play the big bully, then maybe he should be takin it back now like he has with others that gave him the bums rush. 2041 is a joke since not only will the water be gone, but 90% of us will be as well.

  • John W.
    July 02, 2010 - 13:19

    W McLean.. I've looked at this bs long enough. Labrador is not geographically fitted to the Island of Newfoundland. As for not being part of Newfoundland, the Labrador portion was given lawfully to the country of Newfoundland back sometime ago. If you dont agree with that; tough.

    As for Labrador squawking about the Island of Newfoundland, was it not the people of that part of that non-island part of the island of Newfoundland, demanded that Labarador be added to Newfoundland: hence Newfoundland and Labrador, or NL. This was to ensure that the world knew that Newfoundland and Labrador was one and the same province. Also Labrador wanted to be recognized as it's place being part of the Island of Newfoundland. In any event, I always say the province of Newfoundland with the fact, yes Labrador is part of Newfoundland.

  • Manny
    July 02, 2010 - 13:16

    Like someone else said, we live in a great country. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer!
    All over the world hydro contracts have been re-worked due to the volatility of energy prices. Except for Canada.
    NL could easily be the wealthiest province instead they are the poorest. Look at what Ottawa did to your fish resources. That is another crime.
    It is going to take a lot of effort and guts to get NL out of the hole. Greedy and conniving politicians are mostly to blame.

    From where many of us sit here in Central Canada it is going to take time, courage and smarts to reverse the flow, so to speak. It looks like Danny Williams has started that. If only the nay-sayers would back of a bit, support him and unite against Ottawa, he just might get it done.

  • king herod
    July 02, 2010 - 13:16

    those darn 'roamers' think they own it all...

    are newfadiles truly as ignorant of Labrador and our Peoples and our INDIGENOUS RIGHTS as you bunch of buggers makes it sound?

    for newfadiles to so feign ignorance of their own guilt in mistreating the natives of Labrador,it seems to me,that it IS actually a part of the ruse...pretending 'OK'...whistling past the boneyard.a lot of ways to say it.
    it is clear to us of Labrador that the theft is ongoing...though the genocide may be sweetened up.how do they downplay what they have done?pretend they were the poor victims of theft,exploitation,robbery.

  • Manny
    July 02, 2010 - 13:15

    W McLean from ON are you some kind of a weird perfectionist or do you have an agenda that you don't want others to know about. Spit it out!

  • NL_Expatriate
    July 02, 2010 - 13:15

    It was a conflict of interest.

    Sanctioned by the national political parties of the day and given credibility by the SCC with 3 judges from ON and 3 Judges from Qu with the remaining 3 judges from the colonies.

    http://www.thetelegram.com/index.cfm?sid=219507&sc=79

    Liberal, or Conservative whatever it doesn't matter what national party you elect MP's to they are all the same when you belong to a minority prov in this phoney federation. All of the national parties have to work within the same tyranny of the majority system where in order to win power you need to be on the good side of the majority and the majority in this confederation live in Ontario and Quebec. 66% to be exact and further to that some 50%of the canadian population live in the urban cities none of which count from our province. You must be delusional if you think any national party will go to bat for 1.5% of the population and that includes the MP's you elect to those same national parties. Sure we don't even comprise the margin of error in the polls which is usually 3%. It isn't the national parties we need to change as we have seen it is the political system of Democratic Discrimination against the minority provinces by all of the national parties in favor of vote buying in the majority provinces. You could be playing this game till the cows come home of electing one or the other national proxy parties for ON/QU and expecting a different result it is time to stop the insanity. These are all symptoms the real root cause of our place in confederation is our lack of equality. If you really want to send a message to the confederation and have your elected MP's stand up for you tell them to cross the floor and stand up as Newfoundland and Labrador First MP's. As for defeating the budget it can only be done with the Liberals or in the Senate that is assuming Iggy doesn't tell the Liberal senators to pass it Like Dion did. So much for sober second thought. The senate is nothing but an extension of the systemically flawed HOC Per Capita Colonialism.

  • Lloyd
    July 02, 2010 - 13:15

    John W:
    What an utterly astounding bunch of statements. Simply a way way too much to even attempt to try and correct on this fine forum. Wow! Incredible!

    Thank you to the Telegram for the space and the indulgence!

  • The Patriot
    July 02, 2010 - 13:14

    So does the citizens of Labrador want to join Quebec or become their own Canadian Territory. I say if they want to go on their own then by all means they should. But with just a population of 27,000.......Good Luck !

  • John W.
    July 02, 2010 - 13:14

    yes indeed the day will finally come when Quebec will crawl on their hands and knees begging us for our power. At that time, we have to be certain to ensure that in any agreement contract that the revenues that we had lost up to that date will be RECOVERED. And as well, at that time Quebec ought to get a good kick in the arse for the treatment given to us over the years, because the contract as far as Newfoundland and Labrador is concerned was a bad contract and to the present date has given Quebec the means to steal our resources. How this has contined to this day is unbelievable. If this situation was reversed, the present situation would be resolved to Quebec's favor without question. That contract was a sleazy one to say the least. Quebec must be very proud indeed to have taken advantage of Newfoundland and Labrador over the past decades. There is an old saying.... Fool me once, shame on you; but fool me twice, shame on me.

  • Debbie
    July 02, 2010 - 13:14

    Now Lloyd, no need to turn on your fellow NL'ers. Everyone knows that Labrador and other parts of the island don't get a fair shake, but it's Newfoundland and Labrador.

    We don't say that the oil offshore belongs to only coastal communities and that the fish in one bay belongs to the fisherman in that bay only.

    Get real...Newfoundland and Labrador(herein after refered to as NL) has many resources that have been raped by Ottawa and anyone else who could get their hands on it.

    NL as a whole has been shafted by the best and worst of them. Time for us to say ENOUGH!

  • W
    July 02, 2010 - 13:14

    John W., Newfoundland is not a province, and Newfoundland is not the name of any province. Labrador is not part of an island called Newfoundland, nor of a province called that.

  • Max
    July 02, 2010 - 13:14

    For anyone who wants to know about the manner in which the renewal clause was negotiated (under duress), please go to this link for the horrifying truth. Quebec, in those days, was nothing short of devious and the federal government was no better.

    http://www.mun.ca/harriscentre/Memorial_Presents/Churchill_Falls/Churchill_Falls.php

    Long live the nation of Newfoundland and Labrador.

  • Hmm
    July 02, 2010 - 13:13

    And good old Danny Boy is still doing deals with Quebec. Some never learn!!!

  • W
    July 02, 2010 - 13:13

    John W. writes, ''As for Labrador squawking about the Island of Newfoundland, was it not the people of that part of that non-island part of the island of Newfoundland''

    How can there be a ''non-island part of the island of Newfoundland''?

    And no, Labrador is not part of Newfoundland: Newfoundland is an island off the south coast of Labrador. They are both parts of the same province, but Labrador is not in or on Newfoundland. If you ''always say the province of Newfoundland'', you are, since 2001, always wrong. Newfoundland isn't its own province.

  • Debbie
    July 02, 2010 - 13:13

    Can't wait till we finally get access to our own resources...this is travesty...When the agreement is renewed in 2016, hopefully there will be room to make some adjustments in our favour.

    We can see already that Quebec will get a rude awakening in 2041, when the resources finally revert back to their rightful owner. Let see how we are treated then.

    This whole deal of our resources being a benefit to everyone but us, makes me ill on a good day! When will enough be enough!

  • John W.
    July 02, 2010 - 13:13

    Tim... I must admit that you are indeed a very positive thinker. Have you any other words of wisdom?

  • Manny
    July 02, 2010 - 13:12

    W McLean from ON, I get your point, but really its a given. NFLD is the island portion and Labrador is the mainland portion. You'd make a great teacher.

  • Watcher
    July 02, 2010 - 13:12

    Sometimes I wish Quebec would actually get the guts to actually separate from Canada.

    Since the contract is with the PROVINCE of Quebec, wouldn't that render it null and void?

  • jones
    July 02, 2010 - 13:11

    Harper will grant all rights to Labrador to Quebec before the next election. Maps will be redrawn minus the current Quebec/Labrador boundary.

  • John W.
    July 02, 2010 - 13:10

    Lloyd... Obviously you dont understand that I'm actually kidding around with Mr. McLean 90% of the time. He seems to want to confuse the issue, so I'll confuse it even further. Sorry, but I figured you and others would see that, which if you dont, I couldnt care less.

  • speedy
    July 02, 2010 - 13:09

    Having lived in Labrador for 31 years and recieving only crumbs from the Island portion of NL I have to agree with Lloyd, especially after having part of my pension clawed back by the proviencial government when I turned sixty five. Long live Quebec.

  • BC Newf
    July 02, 2010 - 13:09

    Everyone knows about the mistakes and bad deals. I agree with the people in Labrador to an extent, and, if and when a better deal is realized there should be much more investment in Labrador with some of that money. Not many people have been to Labrador, and that is because there has been almost no infrastructure there, and now that is starting to change, and it would be a good idea to keep that idea going.

  • John W.
    July 02, 2010 - 13:09

    Things are changed sometimes to suit a group of people and it is my opinion that this is just what happened when Labrador was added to the name of the province of Newfoundland to make it Newfoundland and Labrador. However, again my opinion, it was not the intention of those who made that decision to finalize a fact that Labrador is not part of Newfoundland. Further I dont agree with the decisiion to rename the province.

    All this has done is form a consenses of contempt and bickering that arises when decisions are made without looking into the consequences of any change. This is exactly what happened when they changed the name of the province. To me it will always be the Province of Newfoundland.

  • Expat
    July 02, 2010 - 13:08

    What has happened to everyone in NL? I am proud to be NLer and proud to be Canadian.

    Sure, NL has gotten the bad end of a good few deals over the years, but we always have been able to deal with it before. Why is the people of Newfoundland and Labrador so angry all of sudden. NL separating from Canada, Lab separating from province...get some sense. What is wrong with everyone?

    Is all the complaining of Mr. Williams putting the people's backs up against the wall, trusting no one? Maybe Mr. Williams should follow the lead of Mr. Obama and try to bring the people he leads back together.

    Newfoundland is doing now and will continue to do well, as long as its people stands united. Stop fighting with each and try to get something done. NL is doing a lot better the some of the area around me right now.

    What we have here, is a failure to communicate :)

  • John W.
    July 01, 2010 - 20:24

    Lloyd from Labrador. Thanks for giving me the opportunity in replying.

    For heavens sake get a new tune. I've seen you more or less a 100 times on this forum and you have the same gripe over and over, again and again. But then again, we are all blessed with this freedom of speech.

    Why dont you and Wally go for coffee and discuss the ramifications of which you speak about so adamantly here.

  • Bones
    July 01, 2010 - 20:24

    Imagine what NL would look like with money like that flowing decade after decade.

  • Mike
    July 01, 2010 - 20:23

    Can we talk about the Sprung greenhouse housing development instead? That was more fun.

  • Lloyd
    July 01, 2010 - 20:23

    Sir, you must thank the good folk at the Telegram for that privilege, not I.
    My only desire would be that you familiarize yourself with geographical and political realities.

    Clear of that....a hundred times? You counted? Likely, if you keep your eyes open, you might see it another hundred times yet. Isn't that what this focus of THIS story is?
    How about it, Wally, coffee?

  • W
    July 01, 2010 - 20:23

    My secret agenda unveiled: to beat it out of nationalist Newfoundlanders' heads that the province is NOT an island.

    Oops, now I've gone and said too much.

  • Newfoundlander
    July 01, 2010 - 20:22

    To W Mclean from ONTARIO .If you would re-read my comment you will note that I did not say CHURCHILL FALLS is on an Island inthe Atlantic I said that there is equality for all unless you live on an island in the Atlantic.It is great to see someone from Ontario commenting as your province is now a have not Province i would suggest you follow this story closely . there are many industries in ONTARIO whom may find that they are not being treated fairly by one or another federal Government. you also may have reason to try & fix a
    wrong someday.

  • John W.
    July 01, 2010 - 20:22

    Watcher.. I dont think so. Unless of course, it was so written into the contract as first beginning. Wish the answer was a positive one for us in Newfoundland and Labrador.

  • Lloyd
    July 01, 2010 - 20:20

    Pretty clear that Joey was caught up in and was clearly outmanoevred in the deal between Brinco and Quebec Hydro. Complain all you want and explain all you want but he could have, at some point, said NO.
    I see all the regular complaints about how Newfoundland has been hard done by in this thing. OK, agreed. However, it is Labrador who has lost the most and continues to lose. No town currently receives ENOUGH power from this huge development. It is only Labrador who has lost the river and who has had it's lands flooded, essentially for nothing.
    It is ONLY Labrador who will have this same injustice pertrated upon it by the same people who complain about the injustices of the first bad deal.
    Yep, you're going to do the same thing to Labrador with the so called Lower Churchill as is so heavily condemned regarding Quebec Hydro vs Nfld.
    Justice for ALL?

  • Newfoundlander
    July 01, 2010 - 20:19

    OH CANADA what a great nation equality for all . unless you are on an island in the Atlantic Ocean. If SASKACHEWAN owned Churchill Falls & were going to transport the power east to Nova Scotia would the same unfairly balanced contract be allowed to stand for the same period of time.I doubt it.

  • John
    July 01, 2010 - 20:18

    There are two big lies of Newfoundland history. The first is that the British took over Newfoundland in the 1930's to help us and not themselves. The second laughable lie is that Joey did not know what he was doing when he signed the Churchill agreement. What a shame that we teach our kids such lies in school. But then, these lies sound better than the dirty truth.

  • W
    July 01, 2010 - 20:17

    Debbie, Labrador isn't part of the island. And you don't exactly see Labrador awash with offshore oil money these days. Funny how ''it's Newfoundlanda and Labrador'' works in one direction.

  • John W.
    July 01, 2010 - 20:12

    Jones.. And while you are at it, why dont you also add.. AND PIGS WILL FLY.

  • funny enough
    July 01, 2010 - 20:10

    living in quebec these past years I've come to know some of the ironies of this province...too numerous to mention in this forum.
    Many Newfoundlanders and Labradorians would be shocked to know that many Quebecers think Labrador is rightly theirs; and the more ignorant among them think it is.

  • TelegramReader
    July 01, 2010 - 20:10

    Reading stuff like this really makes me ill. I wonder what the profits would have totaled for NL over the years...makes you wonder. Get the Lower Churchill Project up and running!!!

  • Lloyd
    July 01, 2010 - 20:10

    Debbie from Mount Pearl, NL writes: Now Lloyd, no need to turn on your fellow NL'ers.

    Debbie, I am not turning on anyone. I am saying, or trying to say that when you start to criticize someone, or something, for doing such and such to you - you need, you really need, to examine how you might be doing the same to someone, or something else. A little self examination is good for you.

    Time for us to say ENOUGH

    Please learn some of your how history (real history, not recent rhetoric) and apply.
    That's my challenge to you, and others.
    I do not live on an island.

  • NL_Expatriate
    July 01, 2010 - 20:09

    Hope springs eternal in a democracy.

    Unfortunately for Newfoundland and Labrador with only 1.5% of the population, it is eternally hopeless!

    EQUALITY OR EXIT!

  • John W.
    July 01, 2010 - 20:09

    does anyone else disagree with me other than McClean.

    Labrador is not an island. Newfoundland is an island. Labrador is part of Newfoundland as a province. So, Labrador the non island part is part of the island of Newfoundland.

    Obviously Mr. McClean that is beyond your comprehension. Even the kindergarten children know that GEOGRAPHICALLY, Labrador isnt attached to the Island of Newfoundland. What I mean by being part of Newfoundland, is that Labrador and Newfoundland are one province.

  • Max
    July 01, 2010 - 20:09

    There is a way to end this charade early - the renewal clause was added under duress. The link from the Harris Policy Centre that I added earlier is a detailed account of how it happened. And how we can overturn this crap deal early in 2016.

    You people post and argue back and forth and most of you don't een take the time to become educated on the subject - read something relevant!!!!!

    Its this divisive chatter that prevents any real progress.

  • W
    July 01, 2010 - 20:08

    Newfoundland from NL - what island in the Atlantic is Churchill Falls on?

  • W
    July 01, 2010 - 20:08

    To W Mclean from ONTARIO .If you would re-read my comment you will note that I did not say CHURCHILL FALLS is on an Island inthe Atlantic I said that there is equality for all unless you live on an island in the Atlantic.


    Yes. In connection with something called Churchill Falls. Is there also a Churchill Falls on some island in the Atlantic? If so, which island?

  • Jon
    July 01, 2010 - 20:07

    This story makes me even more angry everytime I hear it. What the hell was Joey thinking when he made this deal!?

  • inteested
    July 01, 2010 - 20:05

    Well said John, sums it up.

  • Sheldon
    July 01, 2010 - 20:05

    John W: To you, it will always be the province of newfoundland. Obviously you live on the island, if you lived in labrador you'd be singing a different tune. I don't think labrador wanted to be recognized as being part of the island of newfoundland when the name change occurred, rather for people to recognize that labrador is part of the entire province of newfoundland and labrador. i.e. Goose bay, labrador, or Goose bay, newfoundland and labrador, not Goose bay, newfoundland. I don't think people on the island generally understand or realize the contempt that labradorians have for newfoundland. I'm sure they would just like to be recognized accordingly. Labradorians have their own culture, own flag ( since 1973) and own way of life. I bet most newfoundlanders don't even know what the labrador flag looks like. While I don't agree with people using every occasion they can to complain about how labrador is hard done by, they do have legitimate gripes considering the number of dirt roads, communities still on diesel power, limited cell service, the list goes on, especially given the resources that abound in this area. While I would not want to see labrador become its own territory, they could certainly do so, even with a population of 27,000. Yukon only has 30,000 and the NWT 40,000. I think newfoundland is lucky to have labrador.

    And by the way, I'm not from labrador, I just live here. I'm a proud newfoundlander, born and raised. But I am also proud to say I live in labrador.

  • Richard
    July 01, 2010 - 20:04

    Debbie - please list the resources (plural) of our province which have been raped by Ottawa .

    With the exception of fish (which swim, by the way) NL has complete and absolute jurisdiction over its natural resources. Go read the Constitution.

  • Tim
    July 01, 2010 - 20:01

    People really think that at the rate we are going that anyone will be around in 2041? Now thats the best laff I have had all year!

    If Danny Williams wants to play the big bully, then maybe he should be takin it back now like he has with others that gave him the bums rush. 2041 is a joke since not only will the water be gone, but 90% of us will be as well.

  • John W.
    July 01, 2010 - 20:01

    W McLean.. I've looked at this bs long enough. Labrador is not geographically fitted to the Island of Newfoundland. As for not being part of Newfoundland, the Labrador portion was given lawfully to the country of Newfoundland back sometime ago. If you dont agree with that; tough.

    As for Labrador squawking about the Island of Newfoundland, was it not the people of that part of that non-island part of the island of Newfoundland, demanded that Labarador be added to Newfoundland: hence Newfoundland and Labrador, or NL. This was to ensure that the world knew that Newfoundland and Labrador was one and the same province. Also Labrador wanted to be recognized as it's place being part of the Island of Newfoundland. In any event, I always say the province of Newfoundland with the fact, yes Labrador is part of Newfoundland.

  • Manny
    July 01, 2010 - 19:56

    Like someone else said, we live in a great country. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer!
    All over the world hydro contracts have been re-worked due to the volatility of energy prices. Except for Canada.
    NL could easily be the wealthiest province instead they are the poorest. Look at what Ottawa did to your fish resources. That is another crime.
    It is going to take a lot of effort and guts to get NL out of the hole. Greedy and conniving politicians are mostly to blame.

    From where many of us sit here in Central Canada it is going to take time, courage and smarts to reverse the flow, so to speak. It looks like Danny Williams has started that. If only the nay-sayers would back of a bit, support him and unite against Ottawa, he just might get it done.

  • king herod
    July 01, 2010 - 19:55

    those darn 'roamers' think they own it all...

    are newfadiles truly as ignorant of Labrador and our Peoples and our INDIGENOUS RIGHTS as you bunch of buggers makes it sound?

    for newfadiles to so feign ignorance of their own guilt in mistreating the natives of Labrador,it seems to me,that it IS actually a part of the ruse...pretending 'OK'...whistling past the boneyard.a lot of ways to say it.
    it is clear to us of Labrador that the theft is ongoing...though the genocide may be sweetened up.how do they downplay what they have done?pretend they were the poor victims of theft,exploitation,robbery.

  • Manny
    July 01, 2010 - 19:55

    W McLean from ON are you some kind of a weird perfectionist or do you have an agenda that you don't want others to know about. Spit it out!

  • NL_Expatriate
    July 01, 2010 - 19:55

    It was a conflict of interest.

    Sanctioned by the national political parties of the day and given credibility by the SCC with 3 judges from ON and 3 Judges from Qu with the remaining 3 judges from the colonies.

    http://www.thetelegram.com/index.cfm?sid=219507&sc=79

    Liberal, or Conservative whatever it doesn't matter what national party you elect MP's to they are all the same when you belong to a minority prov in this phoney federation. All of the national parties have to work within the same tyranny of the majority system where in order to win power you need to be on the good side of the majority and the majority in this confederation live in Ontario and Quebec. 66% to be exact and further to that some 50%of the canadian population live in the urban cities none of which count from our province. You must be delusional if you think any national party will go to bat for 1.5% of the population and that includes the MP's you elect to those same national parties. Sure we don't even comprise the margin of error in the polls which is usually 3%. It isn't the national parties we need to change as we have seen it is the political system of Democratic Discrimination against the minority provinces by all of the national parties in favor of vote buying in the majority provinces. You could be playing this game till the cows come home of electing one or the other national proxy parties for ON/QU and expecting a different result it is time to stop the insanity. These are all symptoms the real root cause of our place in confederation is our lack of equality. If you really want to send a message to the confederation and have your elected MP's stand up for you tell them to cross the floor and stand up as Newfoundland and Labrador First MP's. As for defeating the budget it can only be done with the Liberals or in the Senate that is assuming Iggy doesn't tell the Liberal senators to pass it Like Dion did. So much for sober second thought. The senate is nothing but an extension of the systemically flawed HOC Per Capita Colonialism.

  • Lloyd
    July 01, 2010 - 19:54

    John W:
    What an utterly astounding bunch of statements. Simply a way way too much to even attempt to try and correct on this fine forum. Wow! Incredible!

    Thank you to the Telegram for the space and the indulgence!

  • The Patriot
    July 01, 2010 - 19:54

    So does the citizens of Labrador want to join Quebec or become their own Canadian Territory. I say if they want to go on their own then by all means they should. But with just a population of 27,000.......Good Luck !

  • John W.
    July 01, 2010 - 19:53

    yes indeed the day will finally come when Quebec will crawl on their hands and knees begging us for our power. At that time, we have to be certain to ensure that in any agreement contract that the revenues that we had lost up to that date will be RECOVERED. And as well, at that time Quebec ought to get a good kick in the arse for the treatment given to us over the years, because the contract as far as Newfoundland and Labrador is concerned was a bad contract and to the present date has given Quebec the means to steal our resources. How this has contined to this day is unbelievable. If this situation was reversed, the present situation would be resolved to Quebec's favor without question. That contract was a sleazy one to say the least. Quebec must be very proud indeed to have taken advantage of Newfoundland and Labrador over the past decades. There is an old saying.... Fool me once, shame on you; but fool me twice, shame on me.

  • Debbie
    July 01, 2010 - 19:53

    Now Lloyd, no need to turn on your fellow NL'ers. Everyone knows that Labrador and other parts of the island don't get a fair shake, but it's Newfoundland and Labrador.

    We don't say that the oil offshore belongs to only coastal communities and that the fish in one bay belongs to the fisherman in that bay only.

    Get real...Newfoundland and Labrador(herein after refered to as NL) has many resources that have been raped by Ottawa and anyone else who could get their hands on it.

    NL as a whole has been shafted by the best and worst of them. Time for us to say ENOUGH!

  • W
    July 01, 2010 - 19:52

    John W., Newfoundland is not a province, and Newfoundland is not the name of any province. Labrador is not part of an island called Newfoundland, nor of a province called that.

  • Max
    July 01, 2010 - 19:52

    For anyone who wants to know about the manner in which the renewal clause was negotiated (under duress), please go to this link for the horrifying truth. Quebec, in those days, was nothing short of devious and the federal government was no better.

    http://www.mun.ca/harriscentre/Memorial_Presents/Churchill_Falls/Churchill_Falls.php

    Long live the nation of Newfoundland and Labrador.

  • Hmm
    July 01, 2010 - 19:51

    And good old Danny Boy is still doing deals with Quebec. Some never learn!!!

  • W
    July 01, 2010 - 19:51

    John W. writes, ''As for Labrador squawking about the Island of Newfoundland, was it not the people of that part of that non-island part of the island of Newfoundland''

    How can there be a ''non-island part of the island of Newfoundland''?

    And no, Labrador is not part of Newfoundland: Newfoundland is an island off the south coast of Labrador. They are both parts of the same province, but Labrador is not in or on Newfoundland. If you ''always say the province of Newfoundland'', you are, since 2001, always wrong. Newfoundland isn't its own province.

  • Debbie
    July 01, 2010 - 19:51

    Can't wait till we finally get access to our own resources...this is travesty...When the agreement is renewed in 2016, hopefully there will be room to make some adjustments in our favour.

    We can see already that Quebec will get a rude awakening in 2041, when the resources finally revert back to their rightful owner. Let see how we are treated then.

    This whole deal of our resources being a benefit to everyone but us, makes me ill on a good day! When will enough be enough!

  • John W.
    July 01, 2010 - 19:50

    Tim... I must admit that you are indeed a very positive thinker. Have you any other words of wisdom?

  • Manny
    July 01, 2010 - 19:50

    W McLean from ON, I get your point, but really its a given. NFLD is the island portion and Labrador is the mainland portion. You'd make a great teacher.

  • Watcher
    July 01, 2010 - 19:50

    Sometimes I wish Quebec would actually get the guts to actually separate from Canada.

    Since the contract is with the PROVINCE of Quebec, wouldn't that render it null and void?

  • jones
    July 01, 2010 - 19:47

    Harper will grant all rights to Labrador to Quebec before the next election. Maps will be redrawn minus the current Quebec/Labrador boundary.

  • John W.
    July 01, 2010 - 19:46

    Lloyd... Obviously you dont understand that I'm actually kidding around with Mr. McLean 90% of the time. He seems to want to confuse the issue, so I'll confuse it even further. Sorry, but I figured you and others would see that, which if you dont, I couldnt care less.

  • speedy
    July 01, 2010 - 19:45

    Having lived in Labrador for 31 years and recieving only crumbs from the Island portion of NL I have to agree with Lloyd, especially after having part of my pension clawed back by the proviencial government when I turned sixty five. Long live Quebec.

  • BC Newf
    July 01, 2010 - 19:44

    Everyone knows about the mistakes and bad deals. I agree with the people in Labrador to an extent, and, if and when a better deal is realized there should be much more investment in Labrador with some of that money. Not many people have been to Labrador, and that is because there has been almost no infrastructure there, and now that is starting to change, and it would be a good idea to keep that idea going.

  • John W.
    July 01, 2010 - 19:44

    Things are changed sometimes to suit a group of people and it is my opinion that this is just what happened when Labrador was added to the name of the province of Newfoundland to make it Newfoundland and Labrador. However, again my opinion, it was not the intention of those who made that decision to finalize a fact that Labrador is not part of Newfoundland. Further I dont agree with the decisiion to rename the province.

    All this has done is form a consenses of contempt and bickering that arises when decisions are made without looking into the consequences of any change. This is exactly what happened when they changed the name of the province. To me it will always be the Province of Newfoundland.

  • Expat
    July 01, 2010 - 19:43

    What has happened to everyone in NL? I am proud to be NLer and proud to be Canadian.

    Sure, NL has gotten the bad end of a good few deals over the years, but we always have been able to deal with it before. Why is the people of Newfoundland and Labrador so angry all of sudden. NL separating from Canada, Lab separating from province...get some sense. What is wrong with everyone?

    Is all the complaining of Mr. Williams putting the people's backs up against the wall, trusting no one? Maybe Mr. Williams should follow the lead of Mr. Obama and try to bring the people he leads back together.

    Newfoundland is doing now and will continue to do well, as long as its people stands united. Stop fighting with each and try to get something done. NL is doing a lot better the some of the area around me right now.

    What we have here, is a failure to communicate :)