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| Last updated at 8:48 AM on 24/11/09 |
Trouble up north 
The Telegram
It's easy enough to argue cause, but effect is more difficult, especially when it can be measured and it's sitting there, well, right in front of your face.
Whether you accept that global warming is a man-made effect or not- heck, there are still those who claim it doesn't even exist, regardless of evidence to the contrary - it's harder to simply dismiss that there's change afoot, and that the change involved has the potential for drastic effects.
Right now, scientists are examining an interesting Arctic situation: colder Arctic water is rapidly absorbing CO2 from the atmosphere, and as it does so, it's becoming more acidic. That acidity is a basic material fact - one that's been measured by thousands of water samples taken over a span of 11 years by researchers sampling an area of Arctic ocean 1,000 kilometres across.
As part of that study, scientists in the Canadian Arctic have been tracking the level of a crucial basic material - carbonate - that helps build shells for shellfish and plankton in the top 50 metres of water in the Beaufort Sea.
They've found the water has grown so acidic - so corrosive - that it's difficult for sea creatures to build calcium-based shells. In fact, in some places the water is so acidic that it is actually breaking down shells.
So who cares?
We should, for a number of reasons.
First of all, the Arctic is seen as a bellwether for the direction other oceans will go if CO2 levels continue to increase. Think about the species that use carbonate to build their shells. Crab, mussels, shrimp, lobster, scallop - sensing a harvesting theme here? - come to mind immediately, followed by, to a less obvious extent, by the plankton in the food chain that many species, including fish, depend on. Researchers have found that one important foodweb species, the Arctic sea butterfly, is already being affected.
Now, certainly, you can argue that just because the Arctic Ocean is acidic, doesn't mean the rest of the world's oceans will necessarily follow the same route.
But then, it would be wise to stop and look at the physical oceanography and the currents that flow out of the Arctic Ocean.
See pack ice in the winter and icebergs in spring and summer? That, if nothing else, should convince you of the direction of the flow of water from the Eastern Arctic. The same scientists studying the huge pool of acidic Arctic seawater say one thing that's certain about the situation is that it will move - and that it will move in a certain direction.
It will drain, with the Labrador current, into our corner of the Northwest Atlantic.
As if we didn't have enough to deal with in the fishery.
You can, of course, point all manner of fingers to try and suggest that global warming isn't the problem or that it isn't man-made.
You can argue all you want about why a car leaves the road. It doesn't matter much to anyone who the car happens to hit.
In the end, though, it's not the cause that will create the impact.
It's the effect.
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24/11/09
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Niceto See from St. John's, NL writes: This is an article pointing out the obvious, except to the willfully ignorant. Sadly it was this same place where Tony Collins called global warming a scam because there was snow on his lawn in February.
It is to bad articles like that are allowed to be printed in paper that does not consider itself a tabloid.
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| Posted 24/11/2009 at 9:01 AM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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Taxpayer ll from NL writes: The Earth has been warming and cooling for millions and millions of years. The last ice age ended just 9000 years before Christ. The entire NA continent was covered by a sheet of ice miles and miles thick. So to say that the Earth is on a warming cycle, would probably be correct. Every year the universities of the world produce thousands of budding scientists. What do they do? Do they cure cancer...no. Do they solve the economic crisis, or solve the fact that thousands of children starve everyday while wheat is dumped on fields in Alta. because there is no market for it? No...they go to a big convention somewhere and get together to warn us about something that has been occurring for eons. One log in your fireplace puts more particulate into the air than does running an SUV constantly for months. I consider myself to be an open mined person, but I just don't belive the hype. Google... Climate Depot...
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| Posted 24/11/2009 at 10:07 AM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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James from NL writes: Taxpayer says 'but I just don't believe the hype. Google... Climate Depot... ' Taxpayer: Climate Depot is a website of Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow which lobbies American lawmakers on the environment from a libertarian perspective. Their advisory board reads like a who's-who in the American right-wing, big-business big-oil establishment, and the usual assortment of clapped-out Republicans. You might as well cite the Sea Shepherd Society on the ethics and effects of the Newfoundland seal hunt, or Stephen Harper on… well, anything.
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| Posted 24/11/2009 at 11:03 AM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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Jake from St.John's, NL writes: The fact that the Earth is on a general warming phase is not really what is being debated. The earth has been warming and cooling for millions of years. The question is whether we are causing it and how far it will go.
Hackers recently broke into a University in England and stole e-mails that detail collusion by prominent scientists to lie about the extend of global warming. Quite damning. Here's the link to the story:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100017393/climategate-the-final-nail-in-the-coffin-of-anthropogenic-global-warming/
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| Posted 24/11/2009 at 11:55 AM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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Citizen XVII from Bay Roberts, NL writes: This is interesting: scientists are bad because rather than researching economic and agricultural policies, they *all* have the unmitigated greed to go into environmental sciences. Imagine! And *none* of them work on cancer. Very interesting. I guess they leave that to hairdressers and real estate agents. You've opened my eyes Taxpayer II (Did the first one sink?). This explains why we see environmental scientists driving around in their solid gold limousines and bathing in champagne. What a horrible bunch! (and they're stupid too). Your input is very though provoking.
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| Posted 24/11/2009 at 11:57 AM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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Jerome from NL writes: Yes, the planet is warming up. So What? The Polar Bears will disappear? Yes they will just like 95% of every species that has ever existed on this planet. My plastic grocery bag in a landfill isn't going to change that.
We are so conceited that we think our species can destroy the planet. This planet, in its' two and half billion years have been through much worse than what our relatively new species can throw at it.
The Earth will adapt to the changing climate and continue to exist long after the human species has disappeared.
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| Posted 24/11/2009 at 12:35 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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Taxpayer ll from NL writes: citizen from Bay Roberts I'm not saying that scientists are bad, all I'm saying is that in the grand scheme of things cancer and starving kids are more important then the myth that global temps may, in the opinion of some, rise a degree in the next 100 years, thats all.
When you think of what this planet has been through, long before man ever set foot here, the implausability of man made global warming becomes even more apparant. Thousands of volcanoes all erupting at the same time, huge meterorites crashing down spewing debris into the atmosphere. Yet we want to believe that by buying a prius we will save the planet...give me a break.
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| Posted 24/11/2009 at 1:15 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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lisa from Halifax, NS writes: Where did you hear that global warming is going to destroy the planet? No one is saying that, and if you acquainted yourself with the facts you would know that. The point is that a change of even a few degrees will effect millions of people in low lying areas (Don't worry, they're a bunch of foreigners) and that there will likely be widespread crop failures. Meanwhile Canadians are the biggest contributors of greenhouse gasses while our government does everything possible to sabotage the efforts of the civilised world. God forbid we become accountable for our own excesses. The rest of the world must think we’re a bunch of self-satisfied freeloaders.
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| Posted 24/11/2009 at 1:22 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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Taxpayer ll from NL writes: To say that Canadians are the biggest cotributors to greenhouse gasses is a complete and absolute lie. While it is true that PER CAPITA our tiny 35 million people do cotribute to green house gasses, when you compare it to what India, China or the US contribute it is but a miniscule fraction.
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| Posted 24/11/2009 at 1:40 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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DeeBee from NF writes: I don't know...I'd put more faith in a pack of lies coming out of a scientist's mouth than anything a politician says is 'the truth'. Or anything a businessman says; they're not known for being unbiased. Unfortunately, scientists get the crappy end of the stick when they're right and paraded around as lunatics when they're wrong. If you want to talk about the 'Big Picture', I don't think anything we do now will stop the planet from its course. If Gros Morne is all that's left of Newfoundland above sea level in 100 years, it won't matter...most of the population will be living elsewhere anyway by then.
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| Posted 24/11/2009 at 1:41 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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Funky Monkey from NL writes: So Taxpayer 2...you don't believe what the scientists have to say about global warming and you think they should focus their energies on more important matters such as cancer and world hunger. If they are so wrong about global warming, why would you trust their opinion on anything else? I understand, as long as it's something you support the experts are correct. Also, one log puts more particulate in the atmosphere then one SUV idling for months? Where did you get that ridiulous piece of information? Can you cite any study which says that? Or is it just a crazy comment? As some one said above, I would choose to believe a scientist (and the majority of scientists) with expertise in the area, before I would believe a business person with invested interest in creating environmental damage or the politicians that rely on those business people to get elected.
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| Posted 24/11/2009 at 1:59 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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Bones II from NL writes: Taxpayer II: Given the evidence through melting ice caps, migratory change in certain species, ocean acidity levels, and atmospheric co2 levels, how can one deny that the Earth is warming? There's no question that the Earth has warmed and cooled many times over its existence, but it is also no question that each period has ended with the mass extinction of the dominant species of the period, among many other species. I, personally, have no doubt that the Earth will survive, that time will move forward, and that our planet has the ability to heal from the most catastrophic events. I also have no doubt that it will scrape the human species off its surface, if it needs to, in order to do this.
Denying planetary warming wont hurt Earth, it will hurt humans. If there is an ultimate price to be payed, Earth won't pay it, humans will.
Earth will live on, humans will not. Global warming is a 'human' problem, not a planetary one. Earth has dealt with this many times before and Earth has survived. Let's see how humans deal with it.
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| Posted 24/11/2009 at 2:04 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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Lisa from Halifax, NS writes: Yes taxpayer II, PER CAPITA we are the biggest polluters on the planet -- even the Americans are behind us on that one. What's worse is that we kick and scream at the very notion that we have to pick up after ourselves. What is YOUR contribution? Sponger.
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| Posted 24/11/2009 at 2:41 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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Taxpayer ll from NL writes: Humas will deal with it Bones my fried by paying through the nose, because that's what this is all about...the money. Soon everything that polutes will have a carbon tax associated with it, however where will all this money go?
Lisa b'y, what I'm saying is that Canada emits a tiny fraction, did you read that, a tiny fraction of the world's pollution. Why should we be punished, financially, or otherwise, when countries like China, India, and the US thumb their noses at the Kyoto accord. Oh and by the wa I think I'll skip the name calling thing, you know sponger and all that, what are you eight years old?
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| Posted 24/11/2009 at 4:05 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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Funky Monkey from NL writes: You call everyone names Taxpayer 2. Hurts don't it. Canada has also thumbed its nose at the Kyoto Accord and its reputation has suffered internationally. Instead of being a leader, the government is following the worlds major polluters. Makes me proud. And that is of course a great philosophy....everyone else is screwing up, why shouldn't we.
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| Posted 24/11/2009 at 4:12 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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DeeBee from NF writes: We do what we always do - argue, bicker, fight, blame. Talk. Say nothing and DO less. As stated above, Earth will be here long after humans are but a distant memory. Ashes to ashes; dust to dust. All we had to do was look after the place and we couldn't even do that. And per capita, Lisa, we could be contributing a lot more to greenhouse gas emissions than anywhere else, but when you compare the 35 million people in Canada to the populations of India & China, even if we all became eco-friendly tomorrow, Canadians alone wouldn't stop global warming. It would make some people here feel better, but that's about it. China and India combined might make a difference if they cut the greenhouse gas emissions, but Canada's slice of the pie chart is nothing in comparison. Remember this: statistics can be used to prove something that's not even remotely true.
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| Posted 24/11/2009 at 4:28 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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Taxpayer ll from NL writes: No monkey doesn't hurt at all, just takes away from the topic at hand and is juvinille thats all. I'm on these boards all over the english speaking world and the tele is the only one that has posters resorting to that kind of nonsense, goes to show the IQ level of the posters here I guess.
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| Posted 24/11/2009 at 4:33 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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Funky Monkey from NL writes: It certainly does doesn't it. You just made a blanket statement about the intelligence of all posters on this website. Very mature.
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| Posted 24/11/2009 at 6:50 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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Brian from St. Philips, NL writes: The major component of the global warming debate isn't about whether the earth is warming, it's about whether human activity is the direct driving force behind it.
To the people who think this is a proven fact, think again. You can argue that point with the 30,000 plus scientists that signed a petition denouncing that theory.
One thing that really makes me cringe are the discussions over Carbon or Emission Trading Schemes and how they'll save the planet. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm highly skeptical that paying a tax or fee to reduce my carbon footprint would actually go towards anything other than lining someone else's pockets. I'm not naive enough to believe that for every dollar spent someone is planting a tree in Brazil to offset my carbon dioxide production. Didn't we just spend months watching news footage of how banks and big-business spent the better part of the last ten years running get-rich quick schemes at the expense of their customers and the world economy? Why are people still so trusting?
The fact that we breathe out quite a bit of Carbon Dioxide every day, essentially makes Carbon Trading Schemes a tax on breathing. People should think about that (and who stands to profit from these schemes) before jumping on the bandwagon.
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| Posted 25/11/2009 at 12:06 AM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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Francis from Newfoundland writes: For the latest on global warming, google climate gate and catch up on what the mainstream liberal media in both Canada and the US have virtually ignored.
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| Posted 25/11/2009 at 3:10 AM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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Ed from NL writes: @ Bones II: So, you admit in your post that global climate change has been going on for much of earth's history, from which you then imply that we can halt a worldwide, natural phenomenon? Wow, you exhibit the same arrogance of the radical warmers. Check the science - the earth has NOT warmed since 1997 and is into at least a 30 year cooling period. On top of that there is very strong evidence to show that our weather variations are very closely tied to the activity of the sun. A carbon tax is NOT going to change one thing, other than destroy our economy and transfer our wealth to Third World dictators and eco-fanatics like Al Gore and David Suzuki. As well, read the Copenhagen documents - signing off on them cedes a great deal of sovereignty over to the UN by giving them the ability to sanction and punish based on THEIR determination of whether we are doing enough (or doing it correctly). Do you want a group of foreigners at the UN deciding YOUR future? Just look at the countries they have placed in control of their Human Rights Committee - Libya, Syria, etc. Any YOU want to hand them control of our future? You eco-warriors are reckless and have zero appreciation for the garden path you are being led down.....
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| Posted 25/11/2009 at 9:04 AM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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Graham from NL writes: Ed Bones only reads documents in Danny Williams office. LOL. The resident arrogant expert on everythiong thats our lovable Bones.
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| Posted 25/11/2009 at 11:28 AM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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Bones II from NL writes: Sorry if you misunderstood, Ed. I'm not sure how you got support for carbon taxation or any kyoto based initiative out of my comments, so let me try to clarify. Earth is warming, it doesn't matter why. Humans will be affected, who cares if it's the sun's fault or if it's the fault of a politician, the result is the same. Money can't help humanity with this issue any more than leroy down the street can. The best we can hope for is some sort of scientific, geothermal solution and, realistically, this type of intervention will most likely produce another unforseen consequence for humans to deal with.
Graham: Still as ignorant as ever and still nothing useful to contribute, huh? Hardly surprising. You gonna hate the environment too now? lol. Crawl back under your rock, old-timer, nobody here needs your garbage. My prediction for you is grim, so I won't post it publicly. If your intent was to provoke a response, I hope you liked it, lol.
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| Posted 25/11/2009 at 1:05 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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Bones II from NL writes: Further to my comment to Ed: I don't really know how humanity is going to deal with ever increasing co2 emissions in the atmosphere or geothermal increases in heat without interfering in other natural processes. Whatever happens to correct geothermal rises in temperature, ocean desalinization, or atmospheric co2 levels will have to happen across the entire globe right around the same time as the Earth's population stops using fossil fuels. It's a crippling order that will most certainly never be filled. Humanity disagrees too much, and this can easily lead to our doom as a species. If the sun is a factor, and I agree that this theory is gaining some ground, it only solidifies the path to doom we travel. Modern science certainly won't be able to fix the sun, and every aspect of humanity's existence is completely dependent on it. In a nutshell, I claim only one thing - Earth is most definitely getting hotter, and evidence exists that is geothermic, atmospheric, and oceanic in nature. Evidence of the sun's involvement exists as well, and should be more closely examined, considering our sun is a critical component to life on Earth and we have zero control over its effects on the planet. Beyond that, all else is speculation, though much is educated speculation.
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| Posted 25/11/2009 at 1:56 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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jim from nl writes: I am going to be one of the honest ones here. I don’t know anything about global warming. I know what a group of educated people are telling me. But for every scientist that says one thing there is another scientist that will say something different to contradict them. Who is right? What makes them right and the other wrong?
I think the people who are putting web sites on this forum for referrals are the ignorant ones. There are not very many unbiased sites out there to refer to about anything, and finding something on the web dose not mean that it is factual.
If you pay a scientist to prove something, they WILL prove it. They will prove that monkeys don’t poop if you give them a big enough grant.
Something for you to think about:
A few years ago, Dr. David Suzuki ( a pretty smart fellow) had a commercial on TV with the focus on getting everyone in Canada to change there incandescent light bulbs to compact fluorescent bulbs so they can save energy and the environment , then they showed him screwing one in outside of his house in winter. Makes sense, everyone should conserve energy wherever they can. The only problem was that they don’t work properly in cold temperatures. In fact they hardly work at all in cold temperatures, but because he is a respected scientist, every one took his word to be gospel. It was only after a large light manufacture contacted them and explained that compact fluorescent lamps should only be used in certain applications (warm temp), which he accepted it and the commercial was taken off TV.
Moral:
Even scientist can be wrong. Just try to pick up after yourself and conserve wherever you can. Don’t crap where you sleep
mm:
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| Posted 25/11/2009 at 3:12 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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Harold from NL writes: As usual Bones is always right about everything and everyone else is wrong. So similar in many ways to Danny Williams. I guess it has rubbed off on him a few times and he has developed the same arrogant attitude as dictator Dan. It shows more and more lately. The hot air around and in confederation building is the main cause of global warming at least in this province. I bet it dosent cost much to heat Bones little office these days.
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| Posted 26/11/2009 at 9:14 AM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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Walter Avery from Clarenville, NL writes: For the love of God Bones get over yourself your high and mighty attitude is sickening. Now your gone from haters to ignorance just because we dont agree with your warped view on things. What an absolute moron you must be. I know I know stcicks and stones cant break ole Bones thats your usual come back crap. Must be nice tyo be in your world and the world according to Danny Williams. Your both apparently perfect at least in your own little minds. Fear not I dont hate Danny I hate his actions I hate his attitude I hate his arrogance. I hate the dictator he has become. Other than that I love him not as much as you do but love him none the less. Hope that makes your day Bones.
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| Posted 26/11/2009 at 10:43 AM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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Gloria Parsons from NL writes: Bones my love thanks again for defineing the word ignorance for all of us. You demonstrate that to us on a daily basis. The only hot air you need to be worried about is whats coming out of Dannys rear end. Your nose is apparently always up there. Too bad he has you so scared you cant even use your real name. then again in your situation I probably wouldnt do that either. Oh by the way at age 68 I guess you consider me an ignorant old timer as well do you sweetie? What an absolute looser you must be, but I digress we allready know that about you.
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| Posted 26/11/2009 at 10:55 AM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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Gerald Baker from NL writes: Heres a novel idea just ignore Bones. He got so lonely yesterday he even responded to his own post about an hour after the first one. Other than to thrash Graham he said nothing as usual. He loves all the attention we give him so stop doing that. It gives him more time to spend with Danny if hes not here all day defending him. Let him do his job in peace. He is after all a humble Civil Servant. According to him that is.
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| Posted 26/11/2009 at 12:38 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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Bones II from NL writes: WOW Harold, Walter, Gloria, and Gerald. I guess I'm one of the infidels that absolutely does not deserve to own an opinion and must be personally insulted by way of hatred? Is that it? I offered an opinion to the effin' article and stated why I believed what I believed and all you haters can do is lay personal insults on personal insult on me and claim that I'M THE ONE who is offering nothing?! Graham decided to start this in this particular thread by deciding to call me arrogant and there's nothing arrogant about what he wrote here, is there? The people mentioned above would try to offer more of an opinion or an alternate point to the things I mention if they were actually interested in anything more than breaking Bones, lol. Why do I bother you haters to the point of the insults you make? Do you people actually consider this acceptable behavior? Is there some other way to stimulate a little discussion or debate that I am not aware of? Is there another way to illustrate my point without using an example or a cite referencing why I think the way I do? Don't either of you idiots have an opinion on global warming or was the whole point of posting for some other reason? Can either of the people determined to provoke this type of response from me answer at lest one of my questions?
I am not on the taxpayer's payroll. No politician pays me. I've only ever met one MHA - 198sumthin, on Random Island, lol, and I guess Gerald didn't get the last 5 memos I left about my long hours in the private sector.
Gloria: LOL, I can tell you have a bitter streak through your use of the word love, lol.
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| Posted 26/11/2009 at 7:01 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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Point Proven from NL writes: Thanks a lot Bones you showed us yet again that youreally dont have anything to say except call those who dare to disagree with you haters. I wont call you a looser like some have done I wont call you a moron like some have done I wont call you an idiot like some have done. No need to say any of that. You do that all by yourself no help needed.
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| Posted 26/11/2009 at 8:02 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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Just Curious from NL writes: Do all Civil Servants spend most of the day on here like Bones does? Is this our tax dollars at work? Does Bones really work in Danny Williams office? Who knows? Just Curious.
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| Posted 26/11/2009 at 8:45 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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Bones II from NL writes: Point Proven: Actually, what this proves is that you can't see past your hatred. I actually said way more than hater. You should reread my comments again, lol, the whole thing this time. I only disagree with the monetary initiatives to combat global warming on a country by country basis and it appears a few others do too. No single country can carbon tax us out of global warming. The entire world has to take action and the only working 'carbon initiative' we could take as a planet is to stop burning fossil fuels, period. At that point, a carbon tax is moot.
Just Curious: Be curious no longer, lol. I am not a civil servant. I do not work anywhere close to Confederation Building. I am a private sector employee and I like the direction my province is moving. I don't care who's at the helm and IF another, more results-oriented person shows up to offer leadership to our province, Williams will probably get a run for his money. I've seen my home province turn into a profitable, energy producing area and I've seen record spending and investment based on that which looks like it could continue for the next 25 years or so. I look forward to my future at home and I look forward to strong, no-more-giveaways leadership from now on. I don't see anyone on the horizon yet that can offer that, do you?
The haters will will twist this to say that because there is nobody better, then Danny MUST be alright, isn't that right Bones...Let me say it again - I like the progress and direction of my province. I like the investment and it looks like it's poised to continue well into the future. I will support ANYONE stepping forward with the ability to stand firm, and give nothing away. Bring him or her forward. A contest between Williams and any comparable candidate can only equal great things for the province as they try to outdo each other, heh.
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| Posted 27/11/2009 at 2:49 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment |
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